Balen's Transformer Warning Exposed Nepal's Biggest Energy Problem | with Nepal's Energy Expert

Anup Ghimire: Become a doer presence, the doers. Our strength partner, Hama Steel. Anjal brother, welcome back to The Doers Podcast. Anjal Niraula: Thank you for having me again. Anup Ghimire: I think it's been about two or three years, right? Anjal Niraula: It has been, it has been. Anup Ghimire: Right? It's so nice to have you again. And I think today, let's address a few elephants in the room. Anjal Niraula: Like what. Anup Ghimire: Like, I think why do I feel that an energy crisis is about to happen, or a fuel crisis is about to happen, whatever is happening. Now, in India, the Modi government has released four advisories, right? Use less cooking oil, work from home, Anjal Niraula: Use induction stoves. Anup Ghimire: Travel less, buy less gold and silver, right? What they're trying to say is, I think a shock is about to come, right? We are more relaxed, I think Nepal is a more relaxed country. It feels like we don't care, but I am quite concerned, right? And I think you are the right person to talk to. What's the status of energy? I think today I was reading a news item, we can generate 4500 megawatts, right? So too many questions, but I think you know what I want to ask. Anjal Niraula: Right, sure. Let's start with the energy crisis, shall we? Everyone knows about the Hormuz issue now, right? The main outcome of what's been happening geopolitically in the last few months, right? Is that people have become very aware, right? How difficult it is to get gas pipelines, how many geopolitical angles prevent us from accessing energy, and how small negotiations fail. Even geopolitical issues that don't concern us directly, still make our energy critical for us, right? Once we realize that the supply can be cut off at any time, the issue of energy security naturally arises. When energy security comes up, for a country like Nepal, let's start with India, right? Prime Minister Modi also had to address an energy crisis. Particularly in India, looking at foreign reserves, right? When we don't have fuel, or a major source of oil energy, we have to buy it with our own money, right? So it's a big forex drain for energy. In Nepal's case, about 15-20% of our trade deficit goes into buying energy. So if we can reduce that, if we can manage it internally, then you're saving a lot of money. And especially during this global financial shock, when forex reserves are dwindling, it's a big source of ease for countries, right? So, in India's context, they are now experiencing an energy surplus at certain times of the day, right? They have a lot of solar energy. At certain times, the price of energy even drops to one or two rupees, right? So why not use that? Right? Why always depend on imported oil and gas? That could be Modi's strategy. What Nepal needs to learn from this is, I'll come back to your 4500 megawatt question. We have a lot of hydropower, right? We've all learned since childhood that Nepal's wealth is its hydropower. So if we can use that properly, that 15-20% of money that goes out to buy fuel, we can mitigate that to a great extent. And how we can use it efficiently, we can strengthen our energy security today. That's the challenge we need to address as a country, right? Until we do that, our fear will remain. Anup Ghimire: So, what are your quick, uh, quick solutions? They could be long-term solutions, short-term solutions, we need to address both, right? Anjal Niraula: Well, nothing is quick, right? All of this takes a very long time. To build that 4500 megawatts, right, we've heard about our country's potential of 88,000 megawatts, and building 4500 has taken ages, right? Independent power producers started building after the Electricity Act in 1991, so it's been over 30-35 years of building. And we've just reached 4500 megawatts. Even after building this much, the road ahead seems different. I think for the last 30 years, we focused on creating a lot of projects. Generation has increased significantly. But now that we've built 4500 megawatts of solar and hydro, right? The positive thing about it is that during the wet season, which is about to start. Once it starts raining, we will have enough electricity for our internal consumption. Anup Ghimire: Why? Anjal Niraula: Because all our hydro projects are built using the run-of-the-river technique, right? That means they generate energy from the flow of water. In the dry season, when the water flow decreases, our production also decreases accordingly, right? Plus, we've experienced it in the last two or three years. There are climate shocks, right? Sometimes due to floods, some hydropower projects get knocked out, and as soon as that happens, our capacity also decreases. So, even if we have a peak capacity of 4500 megawatts, our actual usable capacity at any given time of the year varies, right? It's very good in the wet season, a high number, which is sufficient for our internal consumption. In the dry season, our 4500 megawatts drops to about 30 to 35%. So, we have no option but to import from India. Our hydropower structure is such that we always have a surplus in the wet season. In the dry season, for a very long period, for the next 5-10 years, we will still be importing, I think. So, our interconnectivity becomes very important, right? The agreements we have with India for buying and selling are currently short-term; how to make them long-term is an immediate area to address, right? These are issues that need to be resolved through diplomatic channels. Recently, we sold 40-50 megawatts to Bangladesh, right? How can such deals be expanded today? I was just reading recently that there's a plan for interconnection between India and Sri Lanka, right? Using underwater sea cables, Sri Lanka could eventually become a market, right? Of course, there are losses, but what I mean is, our whole region is becoming more interconnected, and we can supply our electricity to many places, right? So, our 4500 megawatts offers opportunities like that. But its structural flaw is that we have to import in the dry season. So, diplomacy is one side, but for our dry season, how do we use other sources? Why rely on just one, right? How do we diversify into solar? Right? But solar is only for the day; what about the night? There are battery storage solutions now, right? They are being used globally. How to introduce such technologies, and how to increase demand even in the wet season, right? We can't just rely on India or other places. We have our own needs, right? Can the seasonal surplus cater to that? We need demand like that. We don't need demand that runs for 12 months. If we can guarantee power for the peak demand of 5-6 months and run it profitably, that's another strategy we should pursue. Anup Ghimire: And in some places, there's the idea of electrifying everything, right? Again, it goes back to demand, Anup, there has to be supply, right? Anjal Niraula: No, now it's a bit of a flip problem. Right now, the supply is like this 4500 megawatts in the wet season. Anup Ghimire: Wet season. Anjal Niraula: Right now, it's 4500 megawatts, but I'm talking about the next five years. We've already signed PPAs for another 6-7000 megawatts, so those projects are in the process of being built, right? So, in 3-4 years, we should have about 10-11000 megawatts of hydro, right? Our demand is 1500-2000, right? Now, depending on the time of day, right? Anup Ghimire: That will also increase in 5-6 years, right? Anjal Niraula: How much it will increase, right? In the past, technologies are becoming more efficient, right? Like in the past, we used to use filament lamps, right? They consumed 40 watts, right? Now with LEDs, the consumption has decreased. So, because our consumption devices have become efficient, right? In the past, everyone used to run desktops, right? How much power they consumed. Now laptops consume less, phones consume less today, right? So, demand won't increase to that level because efficient things are coming. But we need to think strategically about what kind of demand to add, right? They are talking about data centers, right? Can we introduce certain data centers? I think that's a big question. But then again, there's another argument on the flip side: can we provide reliable electricity to data centers for 12 months? Right? Because in the dry season, we often hear about it with India. Contracts are renewed every three months, every year, right? So, no one will build a data center based on a one-year electricity agreement, right? We need long-term energy guarantees. So, how can such long-term energy guarantees be provided for such demands? There's talk of producing hydrogen, especially to solve our fertilizer issues, right? But can that also be treated as just a seasonal demand? And like Bitcoin, I went to Bhutan recently, right? It's very interesting in Bhutan, right? We hear about Bitcoin mining, Bitcoin mining, right? Bhutan is considering Bitcoin mining operations with battery storage. So, basically, their structural system is like Nepal's, right? Reliant on hydro, which produces a lot in the wet season and very little in the dry season. They are using that wet season surplus for Bitcoin mining operations and generating revenue from it. So, I learned that Bitcoin is an energy management strategy, right? Anup Ghimire: So, Bitcoin is also like a battery now. Anjal Niraula: Bitcoin is a battery, right? And in fact, talking to some of the government officials, their thinking was, "Ah, this is possible." And as soon as they started doing it, considering their payments and many other things, they are quite forward, right? But their first idea to introduce Bitcoin wasn't so much from a mindset of becoming a digital economy, right? It was from an energy management strategy that they started Bitcoin mining, I learned that, right? And I think we didn't have to think like this two or three years ago because our generation wasn't that high. But now, how can we be smart and create such demands? How can we create industries that consume a lot of electricity, which is a major import? That's the time to think about it. Anup Ghimire: So, do you think the demand side also needs to be consciously considered? It's not something that will happen organically. Anjal Niraula: Absolutely, right? We need to influence this, right? For example, what's interesting is our trade with India. We trade on an energy exchange platform, not through long-term contracts, right? That means it's traded like our stock market, where energy prices fluctuate, and it's driven by the laws of our economy, supply, and demand. What's happening in India now is that during the daytime, there's a lot of energy supply. Because of that, prices have started to drop significantly. Last month, energy prices in the daytime were as low as one rupee per unit. Right? And in the evening, electricity goes up to 10 rupees per unit. Why? Because in the evening, when solar goes down, right? Where does the electricity come from? So, there's a shortfall of electricity. And when Nepal trades, when we sell our hydropower, we read in the newspapers that we sell it for 5 or 6 rupees, but that's actually an average over a 24-hour period. We're selling daytime electricity for one or two rupees. Evening electricity for 10-15 rupees, right? So, if we are buying at one rupee, and selling at a higher price, we need to adjust our tariff rates smartly so that people shift their consumption patterns. Right? That's about demand-side management. Anup Ghimire: Give an example. Anjal Niraula: For example, in my house, if I run my water pump at 2 AM, it costs the same. Right? If I run that water pump at 6 PM, I pay the same amount. As a consumer, my behavior doesn't match NEA's current consumption behavior. But if I shift the tariff like this, right? During the daytime, I'll provide electricity for 3 rupees. In the evening, electricity will cost me 12 rupees, whatever NEA is paying. If we can package it like that, then my behavior will definitely shift. I'll charge my car, right? I'll pump water, I'll boil water in the kettle, right? Whatever. Anup Ghimire: What is it now? Is it a flat rate in Nepal? Anjal Niraula: Now it's a flat rate for households. Right? So, we need to adjust the customers' or the demand as well. Because we can separate the dry season and the wet season, right? Once we do that, our demand will also be stimulated accordingly, right? If people also get the advantage or disadvantage, and NEA shapes that for our consumers, then I think it will be much better for the economy and energy security. Anup Ghimire: Interesting. And now, for example, we've read in the news that Nepal is among the top three countries in the world for adopting four-wheelers into EVs. So again, I don't know why I'm not convinced, or maybe I'm not sold, but the demand side is increasing massively. The point that more attention needs to be paid there, that point has gone over my head. Anjal Niraula: No, it's like this. Let's start with cooking, before EVs, right? Just finishing my thought. So, with EVs, it's like this. With cooking, suppose everyone starts using induction stoves, and LPG is stopped, right? Then what happens is, Anup's house will have an induction stove on at 6 PM, Anjal's house will also have it on at 6 PM, right? Ram, Shyam, everyone's house will have it on at 6 PM. Anup Ghimire: Let's say from 6 PM to 8 PM. Anjal Niraula: From 6 PM to 8 PM. So, think about it, right? All our houses in Kathmandu or Nepal, if everyone turns on their induction stove at the same time, that's going to add significant load to the entire grid. Right? So, no matter how much you generate, even if you generate 4500 megawatts, it's like a water tank and a pipe, right? If we keep the tank very large, the water won't come through the pipe all at once, right? It depends on the capacity of the pipe. Anup Ghimire: Pipe means our grid. Anjal Niraula: Transmission lines, cables, transformer size, right? All the underground cabling that NEA is currently laying. So, there will be significant expenses in their sizes as well. For example, in the Kathmandu area alone, it's estimated to cost at least 50 billion rupees for the next five years for our overall distribution. So, right now, we are only thinking about the cost of electricity. We need to upgrade the distribution grid if we are to absorb the demand. But suppose we design it smartly, like for cooking, or if we say, "This much for daytime." For EV charging, it's very expensive in the evening, cheap at night, whatever. Just design it in a way so that the tariffs can be adjusted for them, so that different people use demand at different times. If that happens, our upgradation cost for distribution lines will decrease. Anup Ghimire: So, it's not about the energy, but it's more about the distribution and transmission of energy. Anjal Niraula: How to bring it efficiently. Anup Ghimire: If the demand side is made a bit more efficient. Anjal Niraula: So, there are three things, right? We have generation, let's say transmission and distribution, and we have demand, right? I always say it's like, we have a tank, a pipe, and streams, right? Now, how many streams to open, how much water is flowing through my pipe at what time? What should be the diameter of the pipe, right? And if we make the pipe too large, it's also very expensive. But if it's only used for one hour, it's not very economical, right? What I mean is, if we install a very large pipe, a 2-inch pipe, and water flows through it for 23 hours, and for one hour we need more, it doesn't make sense to install such a large pipe. So, where and what kind of interventions are needed, designing all of this in a very data-driven way is very important. That was about cooking. Coming back to your EV question, right? The main problem with EVs now is that most EV charging happens in urban areas, right? And there, some of my friends are running EV charging businesses, right? Their main problem is that when cars charge rapidly, 20 cars come at once, right? The voltage also drops significantly. Why? Because if everyone opens the tap at the same time, the pressure decreases, right? Same logic, right? So, if everyone does it at the same time, it's not enough for everyone. And it's very expensive to add capacity to the pipe. So, the changes needed at that level are not being made, right? So, where to allow demand to open, right? What kind of demand is it, right? Is it a smooth demand like data centers? Data centers, as we imagine, don't consume power at a constant level just by turning on lights. The more computation happens, the more spiky the demand is. That brings some instability to our grid today. How do we plan for that, right? So, all of that is a very complex energy planning challenge, which, right? Generation has increased, so we'll become rich, right? Or the electricity rate has decreased, it's not that simple, I think that's what I'm trying to get at. Anup Ghimire: And do you think, I mean, like, as EV adoption is increasing now? What is your lens on it now, on the current ones? Anjal Niraula: So, I see good adoption in the private segment, right? And which is good, right? What can be done now is for public transit vehicles. Microbuses have also started running, right? So, it's seen in many places, but the next step, the frontier, is to start changing trucks, right? Anup Ghimire: That's crazy. Anjal Niraula: Right? I went to China and saw it. For trucks, there's battery swapping. So, basically, the truck carries the battery, and we've started swapping for scooters, right? So, basically, the truck comes, the battery is removed, it's swapped in two minutes, and at the charging station, just like at a fuel station, it's done in two minutes, then you move on, right? So, how economical it will be is yet to be figured out, but electrification of trucks has started as a model. And some things that can be done are in places with a predictable flow, right? Like mass transit, and I think looking at the government's plans, they also seem to be thinking along those lines. Our main route is Birgunj. Why not extend the electric rail to certain places on the route from Birgunj to Kathmandu? Up to a dry port, right? And then switch to another mode of transport. We have Deepak sir, Deepak Gyawali sir, right? He always talks about ropeways, right? Why not revive our old ropeways? They can also be mechanisms for ferrying goods. So, in the EV segment, there's a lot of adoption in private vehicles. What's significantly lacking today is adoption in two-wheelers, right? But I mean, we are on the right path regarding EV updates, but so much more can be done, especially in the public vehicle segment, buses, mass transit, freight transport. Anup Ghimire: Like the time value of money, right? For example, why did battery swapping become trending? Because you don't have to wait. Anjal Niraula: Exactly. Anup Ghimire: Right? If you have to wait half an hour, an hour, two hours to charge the battery, it's not efficient for people, right? Anjal Niraula: Yes. I mean, technology also comes with time. In fact, BYD is now bringing technologies that can charge in one minute, right? Without swapping, right? So, for me, battery swapping, and that too, I think it's a different strategy, but to do that, you need a very large pipe again, right? And our trade-off for now could be, where to invest, right? Because we don't have unlimited money, right? And again, the more we invest, the more our costs increase, right? For example, I've done an analysis, and I can share that with you, right? For example, today, the average generation price of NEA, right? That means the price at which NEA buys electricity from hydropower at substations is around 6.3-6.4. Why is that low? Anup Ghimire: Flat rate? Anjal Niraula: No, I mean, it's an average over a year. It's a bit difficult to get the average time of day. But where did that 6.4 come from? It's because IPPs, independent power producers, and older projects like Kulekhani and Trishuli, which are NEA's subsidiaries, have been largely depreciated, right? Their generation cost, our NEA subsidiaries, their cost, our Anup Ghimire: Small microgrids, perhaps. Anjal Niraula: Microgrids will have different rates, solar will have different rates. Blending all of that, the cost comes to about 6.2-6.3. That's just generation. Now, if that increases, and we need to consume it in our cities and industrial corridors. Then we need to build transmission lines. There are losses in transmission lines, right? Now, the cost to the substation is borne by the developer, not NEA. Then the transmission line loss is borne by NEA. Then it comes to the distribution grid. If all losses there are also borne by NEA. Then the investment needed to expand those pipes is also borne by NEA, right? So, all of that adds cost to our 6.2, and when it reaches Kathmandu and is consumed, it becomes 8.5-9 rupees. Adding overheads, transmission losses, all investment costs. So, at 9-9.5 rupees per unit of electricity, if we don't manage it smartly, if we plan haphazardly, our costs will start increasing. And then our dream, which we've had for a long time, right? To have abundant energy and everyone using it cheaply. Anup Ghimire: To become rich from energy. Anjal Niraula: To become rich from energy. All of that, energy is not a fixed commodity, right? Energy only has value when I need it, right? It's supply-demand driven, right? Its price won't always be this much, right? For example, in the evening, everyone is asleep, no one needs electricity, the value is low. In the evening, right? Everyone comes home from the office, right? Turns on the TV, turns on the lights. Now everyone wants energy at a certain point of time. Its value increases, right? So, the realization that it's actually a market-driven commodity is slowly happening in our country, and we need to capture this trend and see where the opportunities are. It's a very conscious decision we have to make. Where do we increase consumption, where do we invest? What kind of incentives should we give people? It's a very smart management plan, let's say. Anup Ghimire: And which will only be possible if it comes through policy. Anjal Niraula: Policy is a big part, right? So, I started earlier, diplomacy is also a very, very big part, right? Our access to Bangladesh is super important for us. Our trade with India too, right? Sometimes people say, right? Everything should be consumed within our country; any agreement with India is treason, I sometimes hear that, right? But our generation structure is such that if we don't rely on diplomacy and interconnection and focus only on ourselves, sometimes you are actually weaker, right? So, when to sell, maximize as much as possible, but it's not going to happen overnight, right? I can't say I'll consume everything tomorrow. Because, right? Our country's transmission line geography is like this, right? Hydropower is being built in the eastern corner, right? Transmission lines haven't reached the west. There, we have to buy from Tanakpur again, right? And here, the connection is at Dhalkebar, and then to think that people in Surkhet will get electricity is completely, right? It's not possible. That's why diplomacy is number one, it's needed, right? And smart planning in the sense of anticipating demand and investing where, right? This is a big part of what our government should focus on for the next two or three years. Anup Ghimire: And smart planning includes investment in transmission, policy, everything. Anjal Niraula: That too. And again, can the Nepal government do all the investment? That's also a question, right? Again, we'll have to take loans for everything, right? Anup Ghimire: We have to take them, right? Anjal Niraula: We have to take them, right? We've seen over the years, right? Government intervention may not be needed in all industries, right? For example, what's interesting and smart now is that earlier, NEA used to do everything, right? Yes. Looking at it from another angle, NEA used to generate, NEA used to transmit, NEA used to distribute, right? What's the main problem? NEA has signed PPAs with 4500 megawatts of hydro. Right? Anup Ghimire: In total. Anjal Niraula: In total, right? We take PPAs lightly, but a PPA is actually a take-or-pay obligation to pay for any energy that's been generated for a period of 25 years. So, now think about it, right? Anup Ghimire: It's like giving a guaranteed marketplace. Anjal Niraula: It's given, right? That means today, the burden is about 85 billion rupees annually, right? Now, I've guaranteed it for 25 years, and our Nepali banks have invested against it, right? Our banks are also exposed to hydropower by about 8-9-10%. If you look at our capital market, almost 15% are now shares of hydropower companies. So, it's a big part of our capital market too, right? Anup Ghimire: Capital market, what percentage? Anjal Niraula: 15% of the capital market is all hydro company shares, right? So, NEA has backed that for 25 years, and if we can't create enough internal demand, then we are again relying on India for export, and our contract with India is for one or two years. Anup Ghimire: One or two years. Anjal Niraula: Exactly, right? And what are we trading that on now? We are trading on the day-ahead market, where energy prices are very volatile. Anup Ghimire: Dry. Anjal Niraula: It's 24 hours, but we are selling in the dry season, no, it's like this, buying in the dry season is volatile, selling in the wet season is volatile, right? So, we are completely exposed to market forces, right? And that's a very big liability, right? This 4500 megawatts, sometimes we think it will bring great progress to the country, but purely from an economic perspective. Anup Ghimire: The economy could crash. Anjal Niraula: Exactly, if it doesn't find a way. Now, that's the other risk. What I mean is, bringing energy from outside, and now, let's say, there's an opportunity, right? What I mean is, we need to electrify everything. Anup Ghimire: Everything electrification. Anjal Niraula: We need to add that, and that won't happen automatically, right? And it's not like I'll reduce prices for everyone. It needs to be reduced smartly. What I mean is, our evening demand, which is costing us dearly, needs to be shifted. We need to build EV charging stations everywhere. We need to plan how much it will cost for our transmission and distribution, right? If we don't do that, then all that risk is being taken by NEA at the moment, right? Now, think about it. If we also have to build transmission, then another burden is added, right? So, in this, NEA has now been unbundled, or a new transmission line company has been opened. It's still government-owned, but it's forming SPVs and allowing the private sector to build transmission lines on a public-private partnership model, right? And what happens is, if I build a transmission line, I'll get a commission for the energy that flows through it. Anup Ghimire: Like paying a toll tax on a road. NEA will pay. Anjal Niraula: Exactly, right? So, the transmission line company will get that money, right? Now, hydro will pay for it, right? So, but anyway, NEA doesn't have to invest my money. So, your money is not locked into an asset where, if generation itself is not guaranteed, then after building that generation, I have to build a transmission line to sell it, right? That too. Anup Ghimire: Generation, NEA isn't worried about that, right? NEA is generating. Anjal Niraula: No, if I develop hydro and build one, I have a PPA with NEA, right? Anup Ghimire: Ah. NEA only acquires it, right? Acquisition. Anjal Niraula: Exactly, right? The responsibility to purchase it falls on them. Now, what I wanted to say is, if private sectors come and build the transmission lines, then NEA will build them. The responsibility for that, for up to 25 years, finding the market, that responsibility is also theirs, right? So I think that's the dynamic in our energy market where I feel there's too much burden on NEA, and where the introduction of the private sector will help alleviate that burden. This is because, up to a certain level, our base load, to meet the country's demand, NEA was essential. Because of NEA, our energy rates have also decreased, right? Now, with assets built over many years, new assets being built are becoming more expensive. And instead of burdening NEA with all of this, when we start introducing the private sector, our market will start expanding a bit more in a market-driven model. We should say that the market will find energy generators itself, right? Where to build, where to sell, you guys figure that out, we need to move in that direction. Until that happens, it's a big, big financial risk, and it's not just ours, but also for those people who have bought shares in hydropower, through the capital market, for the banks that have invested almost 10% of their capital, all of that is at risk. Anup Ghimire: In what other ways should NEA be unbundled? Anjal Niraula: So in generation, IPPs have already come in quite a lot, right? This was needed before the market matured. So they have arrived. Now, in transmission lines, many private sectors have also arrived, right? Now, I see a lot of opportunities in distribution as well, right? This is how it will be, and how I think it should be and can be, is what they call peer-to-peer trading. I think what we will eventually unlock is, for example, if Anup installs solar at his home, right? If I need power in my neighborhood, how do I use NEA's grid to do that, right? We need to start facilitating those kinds of things. Because that will help reduce congestion, right? As I said, just increasing the size of the pipe and bringing it from one place isn't enough. Where to flow the power from. So all of that needs to be planned gradually. Anup Ghimire: What other opportunities are there in distribution? Peer-to-peer is one. Anjal Niraula: In distribution, what I see, the main aspect is what they call demand response, right? How can we manage this demand? In America, for example, if the price is very high today, right? If you reduce your electricity consumption today, you get this much credit, right? So opportunities like that. Because price signals fluctuate. A huge opportunity here is to have batteries behind the meter, or something similar, right? For example, if I install a battery in your house, right? If I install a 10-kilowatt, 10-unit battery, and then during times of congestion in the country, when there's difficulty, I can cut you off from the distribution grid, or I can draw certain power from that battery, right? That's called a virtual power plant, right? Instead of a power plant in a far-off place, how do we evacuate power from these small, interconnected distributed systems, how do we manage it. So I think there are a few things that you can do. But that, I think, is the final step in this process, right? I think generation has happened, we are in different phases of transmission lines now. Directives like open access are coming, which means that if I, as an industry, build a solar plant in Mahakali and have a factory in Mechi, I can use electricity from there by paying a toll tax, so to speak, and consume it here. Such concepts are being introduced, right? So a lot of things are happening. It's important to understand all of this in layers, phase by phase, and while all of that is happening, we need diplomacy, we need smart management, we need proactive support. We also have a lot of data available, right? We need to know what's happening where, how power is flowing, who is consuming how much. Anup Ghimire: How digital is it these days? Anjal Niraula: I think it's digital to a certain level, right? We have the load dispatch center in Syuchatar. I think it's up to 66 KV, right? We have different voltage levels. The resolution up to 66 KV should be good. Below that, data for certain high customer groups might be digital. I know that data from certain substations can be extracted, but I don't think the resolution is that good at that lower level. Anup Ghimire: And why do you call this phase by phase? For example, to bring innovation in distribution, does transmission have to be sorted out first? Anjal Niraula: No, no. Anup Ghimire: This cannot be done parallelly? Anjal Niraula: This definitely can be done parallelly, right? This definitely can be done parallelly. This is happening with transmission lines too. When I said phase by phase, I meant how to introduce innovations in distribution, but definitely all three can be done. Anup Ghimire: It's like the world is becoming local, right? Like when I was reading about Tesla, how eventually Tesla cars are going to be local data centers, parked in your house, right? If you need to process something on your mobile, the mobile will process a lot of data for you from the car using edge computing, right? Anjal Niraula: Yeah, yeah. So it's like I give the energy I produce at home to my neighbor, right? Everything is coming back to local, to your own local space, your periphery, right? Anup Ghimire: Yes. Anjal Niraula: And this is something technology has given us, right? Earlier, what did we have? Cities were in one place, and we had to find energy from where? Either we had to build big generators, or for hydropower, we had to go near the source of the river. That means going quite far. After that, we had to build transmission, distribution. We had to bring electricity from far away. That setup was created by relying on certain kinds of technology. But today, what advantage do we have? Solar is everywhere, right? With the introduction of solar energy, what change has come is that I can also be an energy generator, right? We normally use the phrase "every home is a power plant," right? Now, you don't have to go far to find a power plant. Every home can be a power plant, and that. Anup Ghimire: Should be a power plant. Anjal Niraula: Should be a power plant, and by that, what happens is there are advantages, right? This supports our grid, right? Some people say, if everyone installs solar on their roof, NEA's revenue will decrease, right? But that, I think, is very short-term thinking. We said earlier, this is the structure, right? We have 15% fuel import, right? Plus, we don't just build hydropower. Then we have to build transmission lines, deliver power reliably. Without that, demand won't come, right? And to do that, we can't just think about generation and hydropower rates. We also need to think about how we consume it. And when we start thinking of homes as power plants, it strengthens our grid today. It helps in diesel displacement. Things like demand response, which I mentioned, will be fulfilled by this. Anup Ghimire: I think to do all of this, it has to be solar. There are no other options, right? Anjal Niraula: Yes, right? Solar is there. Other options are also there. Like biofuels, right? People are also using them in factories. As clients, when we do solar work, I see many sites. Diesel generators are also there, right? Now, they are expensive, dirty, we don't have diesel, but biofuels are also there, right? Technology that extracts power from rice husks. I mean, so there are a few technologies out there. New things are being done in different industry categories. Hydrogen might be there, right? So there are many, but yeah, I think the most widely used and commercial one is solar. Anup Ghimire: I feel solar is also being somewhat glamorized. Like, I was reading something recently, about how SpaceX is launching solar satellites, data center satellites, which will get power from solar, right? Anjal Niraula: Well, I think this is more of an inherent problem of data centers than solar, right? I think the whole world is going towards compute, right? How to bring that, to expand that, people have identified two bottlenecks, right? One is power, right? It's a big part of the cost, operations, everything. The other is real estate, right? Land is also expensive, and nobody wants them near your home, right? You hear the noise around your house, right? I'm not sure if you've seen the videos, right? That banging noise. So nobody wants them around you, right? Plus, you have to find land, it adds to the cost. So I think what they are trying to solve there is those two problems. Anup Ghimire: Not just power. Anjal Niraula: Not just power, it's the real estate problem too. And if you put them in space, you might also get 24-hour sunlight, right? So there are other angles. So if you need cheap power and real estate, it's a data center problem they are trying to fix. But still, I think solar has a part to play in unlocking the data center business. Anup Ghimire: And it can be said to be fast too. Because today, if hydropower takes years and years, solar might take a couple of months, right? Anjal Niraula: Absolutely, right? And in fact, if I install it on the rooftop, it's fast today, right? For example, in the last five years, a lot of hydropower has been built. Big hydropower projects are also being built, so don't compare it. But comparing the speed of hydro and solar, in the last five years, about 90 megawatts of grid-connected solar has been built, right? Anup Ghimire: 90 megawatts. Anjal Niraula: 90 megawatts, right? Anup Ghimire: In how many years? Anjal Niraula: In the last five years, right? But even then, the bulk came in the last two years, but the policy was made and started about five years ago, right? Immediately after that, our Nepal government called for tenders for 900 megawatts of solar, and I think that will all be built in the next one or two years. Right? That's another 900 megawatts that's going to be added. That's going to be super cheap, super fast. And then another one, like what I do. Anup Ghimire: Who will generate this? Is it government-funded? Anjal Niraula: No, no, private IPPs will do it and then purchase power from the government through a 25-year agreement. Anup Ghimire: NEA will buy it? Anjal Niraula: NEA will buy it. But then the third component I am part of is distributed energy, which is solar rooftops. Installing solar on top of factories, on top of houses. In those five years, without any regulation and without relying on NEA, we have built about 70-75 megawatts of solar. No administration was involved, and no liabilities like the 25-year ones we mentioned earlier were created. An additional 70-80 megawatts of solar has been built entirely at the risk of the private sector. Here, issues like agricultural land don't come up, public resources. Anup Ghimire: All roofs. Anjal Niraula: All roofs. Anup Ghimire: In this, the public needs to be aware. Anjal Niraula: The public needs to be aware. Right? And in large-scale hydros, there's the issue of agricultural land, rivers, right? Building dams, displacing people, there are many social issues, right? But this can grow organically at the risk of the entire private sector, right? It can be installed on rooftops, and that will generate not just during the wet season, but also during the dry season when we import, right? During the day, that also won't be needed, right? So it checks boxes for energy security, sovereignty, and many other things. Anup Ghimire: Is it like a meme or something, building solar on the road itself? Anjal Niraula: Well, I think in the last few years, the price of solar has decreased a lot. Right? It has decreased a lot, right? People started calculating it per kg, right? I also know it started coming around 400-500 rupees per kg. Although it has increased a bit again, but once that happens, can it be a viable building material? That's a very interesting concept. Because I. Anup Ghimire: Building material, solar. Anjal Niraula: Building material, solar, right? Anup Ghimire: Houses. Anjal Niraula: Why not, right? So conversations like that are happening. I'm not sure how economically feasible it will be. And even if not everything is economically feasible, what do they say? Art imitates life, or life imitates art? I think there are certain projects that need to be undertaken so that people's vision goes in that direction, right? And I think that was more to make a point that solar is efficient here, it can be done. I'm not sure about its economic viability. Anup Ghimire: How much is it? If you think a little crazy, you can make anything out of panels. You can make clothes out of panels too. Anjal Niraula: Well, there are bags, right? There are definitely bags. When you go trekking, you can use solar bags, right? Now, you can even make cars out of solar. Anup Ghimire: Cars. Anjal Niraula: I think there are one or two cars like that, right? In fact, a plane also flew a few years ago, right? Using batteries and solar, there was a project to circumnavigate the globe. I think it's all trying to capture people's imagination. Things that people couldn't even imagine, right? For example, I've been working in solar for almost 14-15 years, right? Anup Ghimire: Wow. Anjal Niraula: When we first started working, we used to think, can factories run on solar? Solar is just for lighting villages, right? Can it run industries? From that point, now we have cement factories, steel factories, right? Large-scale industries being powered with solar during the daytime, right? That means it's a massive leap we have made. So, I think all these projects, even if they are a bit crazy, they have some part to play, right? To capture the human imagination. Anup Ghimire: What kind of projects are you executing at Gham Power right now? Anjal Niraula: Um, we are, we are very innovative. What can I say about being innovative ourselves, right? Anup Ghimire: You can say you are innovative. Anjal Niraula: So we try to push the frontier, right? For example, for the last four or five years, we have been working on a model to power industries with solar on a rooftop basis, right? In that, you don't have to invest. We bring and install the solar. Anup Ghimire: Gham Power makes the investment. Anjal Niraula: Gham Power does. We work on a model where we provide you with electricity from solar during the daytime for 15 years. With that, we have installed about 18-20 megawatts of solar ourselves, right? Anup Ghimire: And they pay you monthly. Anjal Niraula: They pay monthly. We send a monthly bill like NEA sends a bill for the energy per unit tariff, right? Anup Ghimire: And after 25 years, do you take the equipment away, or is it unusable? Anjal Niraula: No, so I think after a certain period, we hand it over to the clients, right? So we work on that model. Anup Ghimire: Is that a profitable model? Anjal Niraula: I mean, my investors are happy, I have to say. It's not a crazy market, right? This is an infrastructure business, it's a boring business, right? Because I bring the equipment, our technicians go and check every month, right? We also manage things technically, right? From where, right? We know where the dust is. How to improve it. So it's, I mean, it's an interesting business, right? But this gives us the first step. What else are we doing here? We are working on industrial decarbonization. Right? We started this conversation first, and we feel very capable, right? Whenever Hormuz was closed, right? What would we do? How would our industries run? That's what we have. So, decarbonization processes are very difficult at once. We have to go step by step. We are installing a 4-megawatt battery in a steel factory. Right? So that they don't have to run the diesel generator for half an hour or an hour, right? Because sometimes, when the power goes off suddenly, raw material gets wasted, and sometimes the operation is not even completed. When making steel, if it's left half-done, and then the power goes off, the material is wasted, the cost is high, right? So to manage all of that, we are setting up a battery bank, probably the largest battery energy storage system in Nepal so far. We will scale that up in the same model. You won't have to pay upfront for the battery. We will bring and install the battery, but this will be as a service for stability, right? People call it software as a service. We'll do SaaS with battery. Anup Ghimire: And how does the battery get recharged? Anjal Niraula: Solar. Solar is also there, but it can also be recharged. It can also be charged from NEA. For example, in the evening, when everyone is asleep and electricity is cheap, I will charge the battery, right? It benefits NEA too, right? Then unused electricity can be stored in it, and during peak times, when demand increases everywhere, I can discharge from the battery and help the grid, right? To do that. There are other benefits too. It might get a bit technical, but the battery also helps regulate voltage and balance frequencies. So we are doing that. Another very interesting project is with a UK think tank called Faraday Institute. We used to study Faraday's law in physics, right? So it's that Faraday. So with them, we are also piloting a project to build our own batteries in Nepal. A battery is being installed at our office. Anup Ghimire: Building it ourselves? Anjal Niraula: Meaning, some parts will come from the UK, but I think most of the raw materials will be procured from Nepal, and we will bring our tanks and use old batteries from homes, extract lead from them, crush them, and see if we can make them from that. So we are experimenting with that. Anup Ghimire: It's in the test phase. Anjal Niraula: We will launch that in about one and a half to two months, right? So we are working on battery-related tasks. We are also building digital products, right? For example, how much energy did solar provide in our system, how much carbon offset did it achieve, how can it displace generators. We can track all of that, right? And eventually, what we want to work on is peer-to-peer, right? For NEA to do settlements, right? How to pay money? Right now, there's only one generator and consumers on one side, right? Now that two-way flows have started, how can it be managed? I think that's the next frontier for me. Without that, it's very difficult to make the grid efficient, right? So we are building software like that. Another software we are building is for charging and discharging the battery, right? For example, is it a weekday or a weekend, right? Will it be sunny tomorrow or rainy, right? Then how much energy can come tomorrow, how much should the battery be used today, right? We are also working on forecasts like that. So yeah, I mean, it's a lot of different bits and pieces. Our main bread and butter is solar. We generate revenue from there, but I think we are doing many innovative projects like this. And another very interesting project we are doing is installing solar at a hydropower plant, right? For example, hydropower projects have a power table locked with NEA, right? Like, I will provide this much power in 12 months. And sometimes, during the dry season, it doesn't rain, right? It becomes very dry. I think this year hasn't been too problematic, but we never know with climate change, right? So if they can't meet their commitment, NEA penalizes them, right? If it goes below a certain threshold. So we are planning to install solar to help such projects, right? And I mean, it's a very good case study too, right? Since the transmission line infrastructure is already built, connecting more there, right? The cost for all of this will be very low. So I think there are a few things we are trying to experiment with. At the end of the day, the objective is that our strategy should align with the country's strategy, right? We are not trying to do something completely different. How can we make the country's energy cheaper today, how can we provide security today, and how can we democratize access today, right? For example, how can we provide it to those who need it? I think all of that is a key strategy for us. Anup Ghimire: Solar is an amazing complementary product, isn't it? I mean like. Anjal Niraula: That's exactly what we want the policymakers to hear, right? Anup Ghimire: Right, just say something. Anjal Niraula: No, exactly, right? I think it's such a, I mean, after discussing all this, this is the conclusion you came up with, right? It's complementary, right? Instead of competition, or, right? Instead of competition, I think we are, we have been proceeding in a certain set way, right? For example, I'll give an example, right? And to build any energy project in the past, what did we have to do? We had to get a survey license, right? And then we did the survey, and the environmental study, and then we would get a generation license, and then I would do the PPA, and then start the project work. Why was that necessary? Because to do a survey, you have to survey, right? It's a license for my river, right? If I'm taking a license for public property, I mean, that made sense for a process. Now, if I build a 5-megawatt rooftop, I still need a license. Anup Ghimire: License. Anjal Niraula: Yes, right? Anup Ghimire: Exactly, right? Even for homes, you have to get a license. Anjal Niraula: So, no, so as soon as it's less than 1 megawatt, now you need a license. I think that's less than 1, right? Sorry, more than 1, right? As soon as it's more than 1, you need a license. And now, whether I build it on my rooftop, on my substation, or within the compound of a hydropower plant, I have to get a license. And now, let's say, I don't think that matches with the whole. Anup Ghimire: How expensive is the license? Anjal Niraula: It's expensive in terms of time. Anup Ghimire: How much work is involved? Anjal Niraula: I mean, it takes time, you have to do an environmental impact study, right? Whereas now, if I build a house, or a factory, I've already done my environmental impact during its construction period, right? Then you have to do it again for solar. And then you have to do consultations, talk to people, and which makes complete sense for certain hydro-centric projects, right? So what I'm saying is, this is a system problem. We designed a system for a certain type of projects, and as new technologies come, we are making everyone follow the same path, right? Now, I mean, should we, plus, if I have to build a battery, say 5 megawatts, right? Where do I apply for a license for that, right? So regulations need to catch up, right? And that's what I'm trying to do. How can policy follow these things, right? We think about one thing and move forward, but how quickly can it catch up? How to simplify these processes? Because at the end of the day, we all want the same thing, right? If we are looking for the country's prosperity, then, right? Is it right to say, I have to do it this way, this is the only way? That's not going to promote any kind of innovation, right? So that's also an area where we need to seriously work if we want to unlock these kinds of opportunities. Anup Ghimire: I am hopeful that the new government of New Nepal will understand soon. Anjal Niraula: I see the energy, right? What they are trying to do now, and the 100-day plan, right? And then, I think the energy ministry also had 30 main tasks, and for different organizations under the energy ministry, they made tasks. All of that is quite interesting, right? So everything we are thinking about is in there. A separate committee has been formed just to review the licensing processes. A committee has been formed to review whether the PPAs are correct or not. So a lot of action is happening, which makes me hopeful about energy. Because the speed at which work is happening now, which I couldn't even imagine before, I am actually hoping that work will happen at that speed, and we will start seeing results in unbundling and many other things we discussed earlier. So, I mean, it's still too early, but there are good signs so far. Anup Ghimire: What are you most hopeful about if you have to be very specific? Anjal Niraula: I am hopeful about our government, right? With a plan, right? If our government can articulate, "This is my vision," right? For example, I'll go back to Bhutan, right? I visited five government agencies in Bhutan, right? From all five government agencies, I still remember, right? Every single one of them said the same thing, and I'll repeat that again, right? By 2040, we will generate 30,000 megawatts of energy. 25,000 will come from hydro, 5,000 from solar. To do all of that, we need 46 billion dollars in investment. Bhutan's GDP is 3 billion. So we need foreign investment to make all of this happen, right? This includes all their plans, from Gelephu and everything, right? So think about it. When I went to five organizations, they all had, and this is 2040, right? We are here now. Anup Ghimire: 2026. Anjal Niraula: Exactly, right? So this is 14 years from now. So to execute this, now, where do I need to build transmission lines, right? Which policies do I need to change? Their FDI laws were not that strong before, right? So now they have seen. To reach from there to here, they need 10-15 times more FDI, so how to relax FDI laws, how to invite foreign investors, what kind of projects to offer them, how to change the licensing regime. All of that happens way in advance, right? So a big part of my request and hope with this current government is just to have a very clear plan, right? When we go everywhere, everyone should have the same voice, right? We are aiming for 28,000 megawatts, I mean, maybe it's a stretch for 2030, and after doing that, how effective will it be for us, with all the risks the government is taking, as we discussed earlier, right? I'm not sure about that. But just the right kind of vision, which is okay, like in the next five years, I will build another 10,000 megawatts of hydro, build storage, build batteries, build solar, and whatever that is, right? And obviously, I have my opinion on what that could be, right? And to do that, we will stimulate demand like this. We will have agreements like this with India, right? Our goal is to supply up to Bangladesh. All of that should be consistent, coherent, long-term, and to build that, I need to put in effort here, I need to collaborate with the private sector, and I am really hoping we get to hear that from the government. Anup Ghimire: What is still the most frustrating part of your job or industry in Nepal? Anjal Niraula: In Nepal, the private sector is already frustrating, right? The way people look at you, right? You know that, right? Now, when it comes to getting approvals from government bodies, right? Currently, we are trying to bring in foreign investments. For that, we have to go through the approval process, right? If we go to the industry, to the company, right? To increase the company's capital, to increase the company's capital, right? Like, I mean, it can be so much simpler. I don't understand why. I used to wonder why we can only do things in such old ways, right? Things can be so much simpler, right? And, and I hear our current governors say, "If it's possible, we'll give approval in two weeks." I think I hear some of these statements, right? And that makes me hopeful. Because, you know, until we build this private sector-friendly relationship, right? This friendly approach, this paperwork issue, right? Our outlook towards them, right? We shouldn't see them as people who just made money and cheated us. Instead, the government also needs to be ready with a mindset of, "How can we work with the private sector to get the desired outcome?" And I mean, the private sector also needs to understand. I won't build short-term extractive projects. I'm here to work long-term, right? I won't have an attitude of, "I'll turn it around in two years and leave." Instead, I am really invested in this sector, right? I will provide long-term value from this, right? So, I mean, we need to meet somewhere and say, "We will solve these problems collectively," right? I think we need that mindset. Right? Now, if you go here, you go there, you go there, you go there. Anup Ghimire: Man. Sometimes, even if you go yourself, it would be helpful, right? Go here, go here, like all of that. That mindset, I think, feels very frustrating at some point. It's true that many things have become a bit positive now, right? But there's still a lot of ground to cover. Anjal Niraula: It should be like this: "This didn't work, this didn't work, this didn't work, this didn't work, this didn't work, but you just sit here, I'll go around, get everything sorted, and bring it to you." Anup Ghimire: I mean, why can't this be digital, right? My files still get lost in so many government offices, right? "Your file is lost, now we have to wait," right? And in some places, you submit applications, right? It just takes so much. You know, all the right buzzwords are there, right? Centralized files, right? Interoperable across different ministries, right? But, you know, even now, we have touchpoints with at least 15-16 departments for all our work, right? Anjal Niraula: How sustainable is that, right? And especially if we want to encourage startups, to expect them to be compliant with all of these things, right? And focus on that, or focus on innovation, right? Do you want me to waste your time knocking on government doors, or do you want me to focus on innovation, right? It seems like that's the main conversation in Nepal, right? So yeah, I think it can be made so much simpler, easier, to remove this friction. Anup Ghimire: You just mentioned startups. In the energy sector, where can startups come in and fill a gap? What opportunities have you seen? Anjal Niraula: Well, the energy sector itself is considered capital-intensive, right? So that's already a big barrier, right? Now, what I've seen is that many things are also tied up with laws, right? For example, what things does the Nepal government allow, or NEA allow. But having said that, I mean, there are so many areas, right? As I said before, you can help with planning, right? If NEA's data is available, how do I use AI to get better visibility, right? For dispatch, right? Where to send power, how to send it, which is what NEA is currently trading internationally. How can that trade be efficient, right? For example, today, the big disconnect I see is our demand. For instance, if Anup, by looking at the load forecast of the last year, can say, "Tomorrow, we can do this," if our planning team gets that information, then they can optimize buying electricity from India today, or, right? Or, where to send their plans, what to do, can be done efficiently today. So IoT devices, right? How to increase measurements, this visibility, right? By measuring and monitoring, how can we pull information more efficiently today? I mean, so there are a lot of different options, you know. Anup Ghimire: In the context of AI, is any AI being used at Gham Power right now? Anjal Niraula: Um, our push is massive, right? We have our own workstream for AI. I think every department has tried different things. Our R&D department, for example, we have done about 4,000-5,000 projects across the country in many places. Out of those, we manage and operate about 32-35 ourselves, right? So, for example, by looking at tomorrow's weather data, right? Like, whether it will be sunny or not, and by monitoring the system's actual output, we are doing diagnostics to see if there are any other problems, right? And for this battery, by taking tariff data, right? For example, energy is fixed now, right? If tariff signals come, when to charge, when to discharge, right? So we are experimenting a bit with building such systems, right? So yeah, I mean, we are still scratching the surface. But, but, I mean, the potential is huge. Anup Ghimire: Let me reframe the previous question. It might be the same question, but the answer might be slightly different. What options are there for new startups in AI and energy? Anjal Niraula: Well, again, if we remove the constraints of regulation and capital, right? A startup doesn't have much money. So, on the demand side, as I said before, a lot of work has been done on generation. Let's go back to our main core thesis. How do you help make our distribution more efficient today, right? As I've said, if the Nepal government brings in different tariffs, how to optimize at home, when to use which appliances. I think that's the kind of information, right? Anup Ghimire: Who would pay? The customer, or would the customer pay? Anjal Niraula: The customer would pay, but eventually, if there's a distributor, a discom, right? Our distribution, like NEA could also be. I mean, look, short-term, but, right? It's valuable to manage these demand sides. Charging stations, you know, wherever they are, these capacities are not well distributed in many places. How to make that more efficient today, I think, is a key part. Even more than generation, and this is also less capex-heavy today, right? It's capex-light, and regulation can also support this. Anup Ghimire: Earlier, we used the word "battery" a lot. You also mentioned it. Battery technology is changing so fast, right? For example, I think the company that comes to mind first when I think of batteries is BYD. Who is yours? Anjal Niraula: Mine is CATL. Anup Ghimire: Okay. Yes. CATL. Chinese, right? Anjal Niraula: Chinese, of course. Anup Ghimire: Tell me about them. Anjal Niraula: So CATL, I mean, is probably the largest battery company. In fact, they used to make batteries for Tesla, right? They've been doing research for many years, and now they are one of the pioneers in battery tech. BYD has already started making cars and everything else. But CATL, the lithium-ion that we use in mobile phones, right? So they are innovating in that technology, and now, below lithium in the periodic table is sodium, right? So there's also sodium-ion. So they are doing new research in such batteries. So that's CATL. I think there's another one called Eve, which makes cells, right? So lithium-ion battery is very mature, and it's mostly driven by the EV revolution, you know, by the needs of EVs, by their demand, the market becomes what it is. Wherever the market is big, efficiency comes, and they reduce costs accordingly. I am also super interested in flow batteries. Anup Ghimire: That is. Anjal Niraula: A flow battery has different electrolytes in two tanks, and a pump circulates these two electrolytes. In between, there's a proton membrane, right? And electron exchange happens there, allowing energy to be stored and discharged, right? The battery we made in the office is a flow battery, right? With a flow battery, if you increase the size of the tank, you can increase my kilowatt-hours, right? I mean, you can increase the storage capacity. So flow battery is quite interesting. Plus, now, it's like, due to the current Hormuz disruption, it's happened everywhere. Lithium is also like that, not everything is available everywhere. So the main challenge of battery technology is how to decouple that as well. Otherwise, if we have to rely on global disruptions like Hormuz, on critical minerals, then these technologies become difficult, right? So how to ensure security using locally available resources is a big part of the energy conversation today. Anup Ghimire: And this, which might be a very stupid question. We've been importing EVs for 8-9 years, what happens to the battery after that? Will it be disposed of? Anjal Niraula: Well, this is very interesting. It has a second life use, right? This battery doesn't become useless, you know. For example, you can still find microbuses that have run 200,000-300,000 kilometers. The first routes in Sindhuli were started by them. If one or two cells in those batteries are damaged, they can be changed, and there's another technology that has emerged for refurbishing them, right? So the possibilities of extending the life of that battery are huge. Today, in many places, it doesn't have to be disposed of, meaning thrown away. There are so many raw materials inside that it will still be valuable. So even when recycling, right? But a battery that I've used for four or five years in a car, run 200,000-300,000 kilometers, can have a second life, right? I can bring it home and connect it, right? I mean, there's a lot of research going on in such things. So, well, it's probably too early to tell, right? But it has a lot of economic value, and it definitely needs to be refurbished in some purposeful way. Anup Ghimire: There must be space for innovative startups there too, right? In the second-hand market. Anjal Niraula: Absolutely. Anup Ghimire: Not inventing first-hand, but second-hand. Anjal Niraula: Absolutely, there is, right? Maybe it can be very useful in applications like our clean tempos, right? In the Terai region, a big part of our problem was, I don't know if recently in Chitwan-Hetauda, it was very common. This "Magic," right? Electric towing came. Very efficient, right? A person sat and went. But they started switching back to diesel, you know. And why? Because the cost of battery replacement became very high, and then it became difficult for them to sustain. So, a pilot is happening in Balanghat now. I mean, I don't know about this country, it's called NEVA, right? Our Nepal Electric Vehicle Association, they are also working on clean tempos. How can battery swapping be done for these clean tempos, right? And the ownership of that battery doesn't fall on the clean tempo. A central organization manages that. It's also charged by solar. It's fixed accordingly. So such work is also starting to happen. Anup Ghimire: Man, if we keep talking, there's so much space. Anjal Niraula: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's tiring to keep saying it, but energy is our foundation, isn't it? As I said before, about energy, right? We import about 20%, right? I already mentioned trucks, right? Around charging stations. But staying with energy, 15-20% of our import is the source of foreign exchange leaving the country. 15% of our capital market, right? Banks invest about 10% of their portfolio. Even if we think about data centers and computing, we think about energy, right? Now, we. Anup Ghimire: It's energy. Anjal Niraula: It's energy, right? Anup Ghimire: At the end of the day. Anjal Niraula: Exactly. I mean, plus, if we can run what we have efficiently, it can also bring economic prosperity. So there are plenty of opportunities. Anup Ghimire: Absolutely. Would it be wrong to say that if we say energy security is national security? Anjal Niraula: Absolutely, absolutely, yes, right? For example, we saw during the blockade, right? Businesses stopped, right? During load shedding, how many businesses were affected, right? We are actually recovering from the load shedding period. How much did it affect our GDP, how much did our growth rate decrease, right? So, and many studies show how GDP and energy are coupled, right? So I don't need to say much about that, but just having energy is not enough for Nepal today. That energy needs to be efficient. We need to deliver that energy to our customers properly. It needs to be managed properly. It needs to be used properly, and all of that needs to be done with foresight, bundled into our tangible long-term five-year, ten-year plans, and communicated very clearly to all stakeholders, to the consumers, to the developers, to the investors, that this is what's going to happen. Until that is communicated very clearly, I feel it will be a bit difficult to solve this today. Anup Ghimire: So I think this feels like a communication that has to be done to multiple parties, multiple stakeholders, right? It can't be understood by just one person, right? So how do we go about it? Anjal Niraula: Yeah, so I think that's what we've understood, right? This is not a linear problem, right? It's such a complex problem. Fixing each thing affects something else, right? And it's connected to everyone's life, isn't it? So everyone has some interests involved, right? So this is a complex issue, but I feel this conversation hasn't progressed enough yet. We still think of our old traditional hydro power mindset, or, right? Or that batteries don't work, or that smart meters increase expenses. Our industries themselves bear the load, they don't have efficiency, right? So I think we just need to be careful about how to advance these kinds of discussions. I mean, it's part of our democratic process, isn't it? And we can talk about many things in great detail, right? Especially about the constitution, we can talk about so many things. I think energy is also a topic that needs to be discussed in a broader scope today. We also need journalists to write about these energy topics in greater detail. For example, not just event reporting like "this was inaugurated," "this project is being built," "this was signed," "this much finance was secured," but really going deep into what is needed, right? How is it happening, where are the opportunities for efficiency, how can policies be improved, how can we optimize our EV fleet today? I think if we can bring all this information into the mainstream today, then everyone's voice will be heard, and it will actually be easier to get things done. I think it will be easier to get long-term buy-in from all stakeholders. Anup Ghimire: 100%, and we will figure out more reasons to bring you back on to the podcast. Anjal Niraula: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, we can also flip that, right? We are also trying to be more active on LinkedIn, trying to push for data-driven discussions. We are trying to write more. We are actually trying to host a discussion next week, bringing energy-related journalists together to discuss what issues there are. Not just technical, but financial, because it's a holistic problem, right? Sometimes when we talk, it's about technicalities, kilowatt-hours, kilowatts, but I mean, it's such an important problem to talk about that we are planning something next week so that everyone can come together and talk. So I'll keep you posted, okay? And I'm more than happy to have you there. And let's have these conversations more, not just here, but everywhere, on every platform, and I mean, yeah, so for this support, yeah, I mean, I look forward to your support to disseminate that, distribute that to your audiences as well. Anup Ghimire: For sure. Thank you so much. It was lovely having you back again. And it's always nice talking to you. As I said again, I'll figure out more reasons to bring you back. Anjal Niraula: Thank you for having me, okay? Anup Ghimire: And so, you are active on LinkedIn. So if somebody is watching this, if they want to reach out to you, LinkedIn would be your right platform. Anjal Niraula: Yes, yeah. If they reach out to me on LinkedIn, I should be, yeah, I am available on LinkedIn. Anup Ghimire: And something that I have been repeating a lot is that if you reach out in the right way, people generally reply. Anjal Niraula: Yes. Anup Ghimire: Right? It's the right way. So for everybody who's watching, thank you so much. I think you've watched until here. Thank you. The program is powered by Hama Steel. Our strength partner is Hama Steel. It's impossible to create content like this without such support. And we have recently initiated a new vertical called becomeadoer.com. Look into it. becomeadoer.com. It's a new initiative of doers where we want to bring out more innovative short-term courses to you so that you can learn from our doers and become a doer, right? And well, in front of a camera, it's just two of us talking, but behind the camera, behind the computer screen, there are amazing people making sure everything gets uploaded on time. So thanks to the team. With that said, we'll be back again with another amazing conversation. Till then, you guys take care. Bye.